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I CANT AFFORD A BORSALINO!
Would it be wrong to get another fedora which is black yet not borsalino ???
and more affordable
and more affordable
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Rephoel on
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with anyone wearing a hat that Jews wear. There is no law that prohibits non_-Jews from wearing "Jewish-type "clothes. There are Jewish laws about what Jews may or may not wear,but Jews do not control what non -Jews may or may not do. Even a hat that is typically a Jewish-style,it is not a religious item.If a non-Jew feels like dressing up as a Jew, so what?There really is no such thing as Jewish clothes that become holy making them prohibited to be worn by outsiders.A piece of clothing that was worn by a non-Jew does not become unfit for a Jew to wear.
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Permalink Reply by Yaaqov on -
Why do you want a fedora? How is it even considered jewish? Want to be more jewish/frum, just pick up a Gemara. See here for a little history of the Fedor. http://ezinearticles.com/?Fedora-Hat---The-History-and-Origin&i...
There is a situation in Erezt haKodesh were the sephardim are made to feel so uncomforntable that they won't wear there traditional clothing. And instead dress like the Askenazim. Some of their clothing date back to the Beit HaMikdash. Perhaps thats how jews felt here in hutz L' Aretz with the Fedora fade.
Off my soap box.
If you must wear a fedora, yea it's ok to buy the cheaper model.
hatzlacha VBarcha
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Permalink Reply by Yisrael Meir on -
nice answer, Yaaqov! I agree.
Yaaqov said:Why do you want a fedora? How is it even considered jewish? Want to be more jewish/frum, just pick up a Gemara. See here for a little history of the Fedor. http://ezinearticles.com/?Fedora-Hat---The-History-and-Origin&i...
There is a situation in Erezt haKodesh were the sephardim are made to feel so uncomforntable that they won't wear there traditional clothing. And instead dress like the Askenazim. Some of their clothing date back to the Beit HaMikdash. Perhaps thats how jews felt here in hutz L' Aretz with the Fedora fade.
Off my soap box.
If you must wear a fedora, yea it's ok to buy the cheaper model.
hatzlacha VBarcha
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Permalink Reply by Aryeh Shore on
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The most pertinent Shut is that of the Maharit. At the time there was a fierce debate if the Meister could wear the coat of a physician and whether this was dressing like the non-jews. The Mahrit came down on the side of the Meister as non-Jewish clothing is OK as long as it is not identified with a specific non-jewish group. The corrallary of this was that is was better to go bare headed (which is not associated with any group) than to wear a hat specifically identified with a non-Jewish group. This was before Hassidim so he did not comment on Strimmels which were identified with a specific non-jewish group, the Cossaks and later the Polish nobility.
Someone ask that if all Hassidim broke with the minhag of their fathers, how can they claim that they are following the minhag of their fathers. I have no answer.
I always say there are two things that I never got used to in Israel. (1) Everyone you see in the street with a kipah is one of my relatives. and (2) people wearing the lavush of a talmud chachim don't necessary know the difference between a Rashi and Toshphot. I keep making the mistake of discussing a sugiah with people dressed this way and then realize that I might as well be speaking Latin. So far in thirty years, I have not found an Israeli dressed this way who was born after 1967 who can understand a simple question.
As for the facist implications of insisting on a uniform dress code regardless of ones ethnic background, it has facist implications.
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Permalink Reply by Ron Balofsky on -
Hi Aryeh,
What do you mean by "So far in thirty years, I have not found an Israeli dressed this way who was born after 1967 who can understand a simple question."
please let me know - rbalof@gmail.com
thanks,
Ron
Aryeh Shore said:The most pertinent Shut is that of the Maharit. At the time there was a fierce debate if the Meister could wear the coat of a physician and whether this was dressing like the non-jews. The Mahrit came down on the side of the Meister as non-Jewish clothing is OK as long as it is not identified with a specific non-jewish group. The corrallary of this was that is was better to go bare headed (which is not associated with any group) than to wear a hat specifically identified with a non-Jewish group. This was before Hassidim so he did not comment on Strimmels which were identified with a specific non-jewish group, the Cossaks and later the Polish nobility.
Someone ask that if all Hassidim broke with the minhag of their fathers, how can they claim that they are following the minhag of their fathers. I have no answer.
I always say there are two things that I never got used to in Israel. (1) Everyone you see in the street with a kipah is one of my relatives. and (2) people wearing the lavush of a talmud chachim don't necessary know the difference between a Rashi and Toshphot. I keep making the mistake of discussing a sugiah with people dressed this way and then realize that I might as well be speaking Latin. So far in thirty years, I have not found an Israeli dressed this way who was born after 1967 who can understand a simple question.
As for the facist implications of insisting on a uniform dress code regardless of ones ethnic background, it has facist implications.
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Permalink Reply by Ron Balofsky on
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The Mishna Brurah clearly states that one should wear a hat for davening IF it is the custom of the people of the land to wear a hat. For example, in America while it was still the norm for people to be out with hats on, it was certainty halacha to wear a hat for davening, however, now that the standard is not so (and as far as I know there are no countries that have this standard anymore, a shame really), the obligation to wear a hat is a 100% non-obligatory. While of course it is not assur to do so, you should not feel any responsibility to purchase a borsalino itself.
I would love to hear what you think - rbalof@gmail.com
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Ron Balofsky said:Hi Aryeh,
What do you mean by "So far in thirty years, I have not found an Israeli dressed this way who was born after 1967 who can understand a simple question."
please let me know - rbalof@gmail.com
thanks,
Ron
Aryeh Shore said: I mean do to the total lack of secular education in yeshivas where Israelis who were blackhats hang out, they sound like total ignoramuses in discussing the simplest Rashi. My questions are simple ones e.g., for Parshat Devorim, why does Rashi think that Sneir is snow in German and Bohemian? Why does Rashi cakk Bohemian, the language of the Canaanites?
Or why do all the Cheredim ignore the Biyur Halacha that says a potential ger should do one mitzvah at a time and is chayav on each mitzvah. This is the simple understanding of the Yerushalmi.
They haven't the slightest idea what I am talking about. First, I have to explain what the difference is between a semitic and indo-european language. I then have to explain who the Romans were and why did they call the Slavs, Slavs. I then have to explain who the Hittites were and their relationship to the Amorites.
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Permalink Reply by Yisrael Meir on
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Surely a little bit of classical culture would be useful, I thought the teachers would give as much as needed, but I believe you if you say they don't.
Please note that it has been proved by several scholars that the definition of "indoeuroean languages" is a fake notion created in ninetieth century as a base for Europen racism, and that there are as many similarities between European and Middle East languages as there are between European and Indian languages.
Would you please explain to me why Rashi calls Bohemian the language of the Canaanites?
Aryeh Shore said:Ron Balofsky said:Hi Aryeh,
What do you mean by "So far in thirty years, I have not found an Israeli dressed this way who was born after 1967 who can understand a simple question."
please let me know - rbalof@gmail.com
thanks,
Ron
Aryeh Shore said: I mean do to the total lack of secular education in yeshivas where Israelis who were blackhats hang out, they sound like total ignoramuses in discussing the simplest Rashi. My questions are simple ones e.g., for Parshat Devorim, why does Rashi think that Sneir is snow in German and Bohemian? Why does Rashi cakk Bohemian, the language of the Canaanites?
Or why do all the Cheredim ignore the Biyur Halacha that says a potential ger should do one mitzvah at a time and is chayav on each mitzvah. This is the simple understanding of the Yerushalmi.
They haven't the slightest idea what I am talking about. First, I have to explain what the difference is between a semitic and indo-european language. I then have to explain who the Romans were and why did they call the Slavs, Slavs. I then have to explain who the Hittites were and their relationship to the Amorites.
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Permalink Reply by Ron Balofsky on
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It seems the issue is that the sector of Jews you are criticizing are the ones who do not pay attention to Tanach. Unfortunately there are a string of people who do not and have not been taught the fundamentals of Tanach (and more specifically just Nach). I wouldn't blame them, but the Rabbeim. You should not disgrace them but address the actual concern.
I suggest you search for other streams of Judaism in Israel and you will be greatly satisfied by what you find. Please correct me if I am wrong, but, Creating a blank statement on how Israeli Torah is not as well known is the biggest piece of Lashon Horah I have ever laid eyes on and is equal to the Chet of the Meraglim.
Aryeh Shore said:Ron Balofsky said:Hi Aryeh,
What do you mean by "So far in thirty years, I have not found an Israeli dressed this way who was born after 1967 who can understand a simple question."
please let me know - rbalof@gmail.com
thanks,
Ron
Aryeh Shore said: I mean do to the total lack of secular education in yeshivas where Israelis who were blackhats hang out, they sound like total ignoramuses in discussing the simplest Rashi. My questions are simple ones e.g., for Parshat Devorim, why does Rashi think that Sneir is snow in German and Bohemian? Why does Rashi cakk Bohemian, the language of the Canaanites?
Or why do all the Cheredim ignore the Biyur Halacha that says a potential ger should do one mitzvah at a time and is chayav on each mitzvah. This is the simple understanding of the Yerushalmi.
They haven't the slightest idea what I am talking about. First, I have to explain what the difference is between a semitic and indo-european language. I then have to explain who the Romans were and why did they call the Slavs, Slavs. I then have to explain who the Hittites were and their relationship to the Amorites.
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Permalink Reply by Rabbi Joshua Waxman on
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See here about Canaanite as Slavic, in terms of that Rashi:
http://elucidation-not-translation.blogspot.com/2006/05/did-rashi-mean-canaanite_11.html
but I don't think not knowing this is a result of a lack of secular languages. On the other hand, not understanding the *question* may well be. Which goes to show the importance of some degree of "mada" in order to really be able to acquire Torah.
Kol Tuv,
Josh
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"I suggest you search for other streams of Judaism in Israel and you will be greatly satisfied by what you find. Please correct me if I am wrong, but, Creating a blank statement on how Israeli Torah is not as well known is the biggest piece of Lashon Horah I have ever laid eyes on and is equal to the Chet of the Meraglim"
There are lots of places in Israel where one can read intellegent dvar torahs - Eretz Chemdah (some absolutely brilliant) and Bar Ilan. However there is a unfortunate tendencies to Cheredization even of normal yeshivot with an increasing tendency away from "secular" studies.
I can only say that I have spoken with hundred of individuals wearing black coats and black hats and have listened to hundreds of drashot and shiurim in the fourty years I have spent in Israel. I find their learning poor in knowledge of shutim, shas and just about everything else. What they are doing in twenty or so years of Kollel is beyond me. Learning pilpullim or Zohar or something but no solid basis in Jewish texts. This is beyond their total lack of "madah". The older generation did their bagrut and thought nothing of taking courses at the University if it was useful. The also were prepared to cite people who they didn't agree with.
This is germane as these same groups insist on taking public funds away from real people in need and want me to thank them for learning torah. But I fail to see why my learning time is less important than their learning that I should subsidize them. (I have learn all of shas and have published my chidushim. I think I am qualified to say the food doesn't taste good.)
Incidently the same families in the US and Europe get fine educations. I have no problem discussing a sugyah with students at Lakewood or Nir Yisrael.
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Permalink Reply by Chaim on -
If in a place where all the goyim wear baseball caps, would that opinion consider a Jew wearing a baseball cap to be dressing like goyim by wearing the same hat, and therefore not allowed?
There is a certain type of chaufeur's cap or perhaps a train engineer's cap that looks like what Russian people are often seen wearing. Is there any teshuva about whether a Jew in Russia was permitted to wear such a standard-issue hat?
And at a time in the US when all gentlemen wore fedora hats, was there any question about Jews wearing a fedora?
I must have misunderstood the quote. Please unconfuse me!
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