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women in the Jewish perspective

Are there other orthodox Jewish women who experience feelings of inferiarity or bitterness because of the way we have to dress?

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Permalink Reply by Chaim on September 23, 2007 at 8:15pm: Inferiority to whom?

Is a Jewish man's dress code - a Kippah - (which constantly reminds us that Hashem is above our intellect) - a cause to feel a proper and appropriate inferiority to Hashem?

My wife says that she actually feels more like a queen being dressed modestly in public.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by chaya3 on September 23, 2007 at 8:54pm: Thanks for your reply,
However, I do have to challange your responce.
a) the dress code of the man is a symbol and a reminder of the special connction to G-d. One may reffer to this as a means of prince or uniqueness. Women's dress of code is a function of such believe [the believe that G-d is above intellect]. I am not questioning the believe itself. I am talking about my feelings about it.

b) Ask your wife what does she do about her inborn nature to express herself as a female. If she is to veil any womanly part of her body, and prohibidded from enjoying her hair or other covered part of her body[generally speaking]? I dont know what is the extend of your wife's tzniut observations, but some women in our community are basically not allowed to feel womanly. you may not be able to understand this. For this reason I asked for women's opinion, not men.
Still, I value your good will and time in considering my question. It is very meaningful to me.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by aribentzion benveniste on October 4, 2007 at 5:29pm: jag sameach simjat Torah

Shalom U`brajot

Mi daughter just 12th year old is going through that age when female attributes begin to
burst. I have always taught her about the wonderful task of hashm given our ladies the responsability
to behold care and protect their bodies as a sanctuary, because of the wonderful divine senses incorporated as a ladie. That she is expected to cover to be simple in order to arise the more spiritual minded energies that would bring hashm blessing for her conducts in this physical life. Now, it is not simple living among various ways of doing, but it is her responsability (Free Choice) to be as an example to other ladies to protect and care their outer boundaries as their inner boundaries.

Lej Leshalom; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Rivka Leah on October 8, 2007 at 8:08am: Hi, I'm sorry you are having such sad feelings to deal with , when truly being dressed modestly is an adornment in the King's crown. I used to dress immodestly in my 'previous life' and I have to say that having been in both worlds, that there is no comparison to how I feel today, versus how I felt then. I am a Bas Melech - a daughter of the King - how could I possibly want to dress like the 'common' people? I have so much more freedom within my long skirts (below my knee, no slits) and long sleeve tops with high necklines (crew neck) than I ever had while wearing clothes that weren't tznius. I don't have to worry about how I move my legs or if my clothes are showing me off in a certain fashion. I don't have to worry about how others think of me. Truly, as hard as it may seem to believe, it is freeing to wear modest clothes. I can just worry about me. I believe that Gila Manolson has written an excellent book about this topic - I believe that it's called "Outside/Inside". It's worth checking out. You shouldn't let the outside world's values put a sticker on your worth - you are worth so much more than that.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Rivka Leah on October 8, 2007 at 8:17am: I just wanted to add that I wear a snood or a sheitl all of the time and I do not let any of my hair show. My hair, as I explain to kids who want to know, is a gift for my husband - why would I want to share that with the outside world.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by chaya3 on October 9, 2007 at 6:18am: Thanks for all the responders. It is great to hear other's point of view. Others who wish to take an appraoch and comment on the topic would be greatly appreciated, too.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by chaya3 on October 17, 2007 at 5:50am: I don't soppose this is a reliable source to base a critical desicions such as how to cover your head. Beside, I know this sounds very attractive to disclose the truth from autistics. But with all the respect, and I do have much respect for such individuals, there were many Rabbanim who went our against this idea.

Also, you relate to your positive change as a gift. Its great if it comes from inside and if it lasts. On the other hand, I have come to know many Jewish females who feels the same as I do. There are many others who are simply used to it, and dont spent much thought of it. This is also a wrong living, in my opinion, because one should be connected with and appreciative of his or her actions. I would say, matanah, if at all should be to have a sense of connectedness with the way we dress.

I have come to the realization, and correct me if i am wrong, that unfortunately, the majority of us, women, dress the way we do for social reasons purely. Tznius is one of the mitzvahs that does not have fixed rules. They are being changed and cosomized every generation in accordance with time requirements. Every group in our community aquire different rules. What is allowed in one sect is fobidden in another, and what is a big no no in one sect becomes a requirement in another. While skirts today are normally worn either very long or long enough to cover the knees it was totally acceptable[ or at least the normacy] 30 years ago to wear it way above the knees. I am not suggesting that it makes it right, but my point is that we tend to follow social rules and not necessarily the Torah. The fear of breaking social expectations are stronger than the fear of not acting the way Hashem expects from us to act. The social pressure that our system puts on our community causes people to forget who is Hashem and why do we follow certain principles in our life.
This happens only if we do it externally without being connected. I believe Hashem is not very happy if we to things just because we have to or just because my mother and grandmother did the same. Yes, there is a concept of Masoret, but that means we have to put more thoughts and awareness into our actions in order to make the mitzvah the right way.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by chaya3 on October 17, 2007 at 5:55am: P.s.
When I say ' I don't soppose this is a reliable source' I refer to the site of Daniel, asking him Holochoh and Hoshkafah questions. You should have a Rabbi to unswer your questions.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Rivka Leah on October 17, 2007 at 7:29am: Certainly this is the case. It is so difficult for women to rise above the gashmius that is ever present - but such and such is in fashion - how can I not wear the ________. So, then, the key must be that what we wear should still be fitting for a Bas Yisroel. This is why in 'Oz V'Hadar L'vushah' R' Falk states that - in regard to covering feet - "feet must be covered as per the accepted norm" - as in - do what is appropriate for your community (p. 345).
I think that gashmius is one of the tests of our time - everything is so excessive - why, you can't just wear x - don't you wear y? but those are designer x, oh, well my stroller is x, and I only have x in my home (which by the way was recently remodeled to look like Mr. X's house - got to keep up you know.) Perhaps this should be a topic for another thread - dealing with gashmius and rising above it. How to stay a centered Bas Yisroel - we can't let the outside get us.

You said: I believe Hashem is not very happy if we do things just because we have to or just because my mother and grandmother did the same.

I think that Hashem is pleased if we do things because we have to - even if we do them reluctantly because He sees how much more difficult it is for us to do those things. Even if you do a mitzva without the right kavana - eventually you'll see that it will become second nature to you - you might surprise yourself and see that the kavana is there.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by chaya3 on October 17, 2007 at 8:20am: Mitoch shelo lishmah Yavo Lishma is a well know concept in the Torah life.
However, the deeper one drowns into doing daily duties as a Hergel [habit] the less chance he has to have Kavanah in it. I am sure Hashem expects us to keep doing it, anyway. But than we lose the whole porose of avodat hashem. What Hashem truely wants from us is to get one step closer to him with every mizvah. Doing it with bitterness may distance us from Hashem.
So while I am still keeping tznius proper dressing, I am trying to gain insights and enspirations because I want to be fully connected with it.

Another point is that to me the fashion is not such a big issue. My greater challange is most likely in my natural need to feel and look like a women. In tznius we specifically aim at not pronouning our feminine parts as they might attract men. Exposing hair, showing lower neck or upper arems or even wear pents.... this is my battle field. I am being honest. And though I dress just like any other Jewish woman, I only do it because I have to. I feel that without the social pressure I would have probably dress otherwise long ago...; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by aribentzion benveniste on October 17, 2007 at 2:36pm: Yeah That`s the point you should not be saying subjetive ruling about a person or organization. Since, it might come close to the line of Lashon Hara. I like to go saying what I think about the matter without judging others actions.

Let Ha-sm light our way. Be happy ah!!! another point.
In the Lessons in Tanya, Chabad web page " One force, one power... bODY AND SOUL BECOMES ONE...
G-d desires a relationship that is the whole purpose of creation being an expression of the neccesity
of a relationship".

lej leshalom; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by chaya3 on October 17, 2007 at 4:19pm: thanks you for replying.
What does it mean: "a relationship that is the whole purpose of relation being an expression of the neccsity of a relationship"? Please explain.

Also, I am not reflecting my personal opinion on the aformentioned source. I did not go against the person himself, and like i said I have much respect for him, for who he is. I did read what he says. I read the questions people ask and I was shocked. Like I said, for that purpose we have Rabbanim to guide each individual in his own direction.

And what I ment by a reliable source was that he is not a posek to decide rather or not a sheitel is allowed, or what is the proper way a Jewish woman is to dress. Dont you think taking it as a psika is a little too much? I can understand if someone wants to get chizuk from his words. But taking it to such extend as to change from a sheitel to a snood [or whatever it is] I think is going a little too far. Again, not my persenal standarts, but the perspective of Rabbanim. This is NOT a subjective ruling.; ▶ Reply to This