Torah & Judaism For Today's World

A Man's Modest View

Some time ago, I wrote an article about modesty. I expressed my opinions and the way I viewed modesty in a woman. This is an opinion, not halachic, expression from my male view of modesty. I thought I would share it and face the wrath of those that may have other opinions.

In today's competitive world, people are constantly looking for ways to draw attention to themselves. Unfortunately, many have chosen to display themselves immodestly. They are "confident", believing that the attention they attract will bring them all they seek. We know, however, that it seldom brings anything of real or lasting value.

These women, in fact, are, often the ones that have little or no confidence in who they really are. Rather, they are confident in their superficial-self for attracting others. They may resort to "trickery" or improper ways, to cover up their lack of true self-confidence. Instead of covering themselves to show that they are confident with the essence of who they really are, they uncover themselves, trying to feel confident through exploiting their materialistic, physical self and attracting the false world. They will then rationalize, in all manner of ways (comfort, style, proud of my body, etc.), how it is that they are the confident ones, not like the ones who cover up. In justification, they may even invoke G-d’s name, saying, "What’s wrong? This is the way He made us.", while rejecting all other G-dly issues and guidelines not fitting their life style.

Modesty is a way of showing the world that one is comfortable and confident with their real values and self, the way G-d wants us to be. They don't need, nor do they want, to degrade themselves. They understand that their value is far greater than the attraction of flesh. They realize that the physical loses its appeal with age, but confidence remains above all the physical and can only grow stronger and eternal.

Others may argue that those who dress modestly, do so to cover up their physical flaws. This argument is merely the sad rationalization they try to believe in order to justify the ways that they show their "self-confidence". Time, however, usually proves them wrong and leaves them covering up, not in confidence, but in shame or embarrassment. Their argument can no longer be supported and, sadly, most are left without any real sense of value and certainly, little true self-confidence. Their memories of "who they were" must sustain what’s left of their beliefs. Those they attracted for the physical reasons have faded away along with the physical attraction.

A woman of modesty has no pretense of right or not right. She understands and lives her life in confidence. Interestingly, it is the modest woman that often attracts the eye within the sea of immodesty. If, for no other reason than, she is confident enough to be unique among the crowd. People can sense and know her for who she really is.

The mystery of modesty attracts the mind. The image of immodesty attracts the flesh. The flesh is weak and the spirit strong. Like attracts like. However you say it, how do you want to attract? How do you want to be respected?

Comment

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Comment by Baruch Meir on February 13, 2008 at 5:17pm: Once again, thank you for your kind response.

Hashem has a unique way of speaking to us about issues at the appropriate times. We need only to be aware and open to all the wonderful things He shows and tells us.

Why do I bring this up? Simply, I received a link from Aish.com to comments entitled

Attractive Vs. Attracting by Lori Palatnik
"Making sure you get the right kind of attention. "

Pardon my pun, but it addresses the modesty issue we are discussing. I suggest you may want to check out the link below.

Kol Tuv.

http://www.aish.com/spirituality/LoriAlmostLive/Attractive_Attracting1.asp

Comment by Baruch Meir on February 13, 2008 at 6:20am: Thank you for your comments.

Generally speaking, the Hasidic women are better "covered", however, there are some who draw attention, not by what is or isn't covered, but by the stylish, fancy clothes that they may use to cover themselves. Please note that I said "SOME". Women in many of the communities are careful not to draw attention by any means. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean it will stay that way. On the other hand, communities can, IY"H, improve as well. And so may we all.

Comment by Baruch Meir on October 28, 2007 at 6:47pm: Rephoel, I'm not sure if you are confirming what I wrote or are confused about its meaning.

To clarify, I agree with you. In fact, you have merely restated concepts I wrote about in my previous post.

The one thing I would disagree with is the use of the word "judging". I'm sure you didn't mean it literally, however, unless we're scoring a contest, there are very few of us that should judge anyone about anything.

I believe you really mean "understanding" a person's actions. So, in this respect, you are, again, simply rephrasing part of what I wrote.
"I agree that each situation needs its own evaluation in order to understand what's happening."

I'm sure that if you reread my post you will see that we are in agreement.

Comment by Rephoel on October 28, 2007 at 6:07pm: Judging a person's actions has to be in relation to where he's coming from and going to. It says so in Pirkei Avos,too. Know where you come from and where you're headed to.We all have to keep on improving ourselves. Just because we're used to certain standards,doesn't mean we should accept that level as good enough. We must always improve. 2 people could be at the same level but be far apart.

Comment by Baruch Meir on October 28, 2007 at 5:58pm: Josh, I perhaps should clarify something about my previous comments to you. I personally believe that most of the stricter guidelines are the appropriate goals for modesty, what I might call mehadrin in modesty. However, I realize that we are not all on the same page with the development of our observance and other levels are acceptable to many.

I consider it important to provide small steps for all individuals (and even some communities) to grow on their various paths. What I find of concern is not that 2 women wear their skirts just below their knees. Rather, that one is starting her journey and has become more modest in their dress, whereas, the other one, who used to be stricter in her dress code has become increasing less modest, relatively speaking.

In most cases, I would look at the first being influenced by the yetzer tov and the second influenced by the yetzer harah. Please be certain to understand that I agree with the issues of differing individual and community standards. I agree that each situation needs its own evaluation in order to understand what's happening. I wouldn't automatically agree that everyone is doing what they do for the right reasons. It depends, in part, on where they are and what direction they're heading.

And, I would not presume to set anyone’s standards. I would, however, focus on education and options, encouraging the tov and discouraging the rah.

Comment by Baruch Meir on October 26, 2007 at 7:22pm: Josh, at the risk of shocking you, I essentially agree with what you’re saying. My opinions were not defining any community standards. Rather, They were based on the all too common and grosser aspects of today’s society with respect to the Torah’s teachings.

I think that you will agree that in some cases, women simply don’t know or understand the halachas. But in others, whether unconcerned or not paying attention, there are simply far too many women going well beyond (or perhaps I should say, short of) your definitions of minimums and community standards. Intentional or not, it is, R”L, our world today.

Comment by Baruch Meir on October 26, 2007 at 7:01pm: Thank you for taking the time to comment, Mr. Balofsky. I appreciate the vantage point you present. It is certainly an understandable one.

I will start my response with a brief background statement. I have found myself offering counsel to women spanning a wide range of age, background and philosophies for over 30 years. By far, not all of them were asking about modesty issues, but a, perhaps, surprising number of them did have issues that directly or indirectly related to modesty. So I have had many opportunities to hear the female viewpoint.

As for males not having “no right to pass statements or lines of thought regarding female modesty issues”, I would simply suggest that the males may have the most important statements on the subject. The issue of modesty is primarily, but not solely, intended to prevent issues of immodesty occurring between men and women, whether in public or private. Even between husband and wife and within the family, modesty plays an important, essential role.

Therefore, I believe that the way a male perceives or reacts to issues of modesty is of great importance. It is, also, important for women to understand the male viewpoint, since they have a real need to know the “male perspective of the entire issue of modesty”. How else will they realize what repercussions their actions may or do have in real life?

It’s not just a matter of how the woman feels about her dress and actions. It’s how she effects others.

That having been said, I will agree with you that as far as females go, “that is a world that [I will] never understand.” Thank you.

Comment by Rephoel on October 26, 2007 at 2:43pm: This is so true. It is the mind that grows and improves with age while the physical side withers. When a person gets older and has little strength and no physical attraction any more, it is the mind and spirituality that defines Her/him. If the person spent his life trying to attract others with immodest means,he'll end up a 'vegetable' when he gets older. The others gain wisdom and are remembered after they die. No one remembers a deceased person by how attractive his/her body was. It just disgusts me when I see these women with showing every body part sticking out (even if 'covered'). I can't have any respect for them or for men who dress like they are teenagers. They have no dignity. Animals look better. At least animals cover their behinds with their tails.

Comment by Rabbi Joshua Waxman on October 26, 2007 at 12:33pm: Just to give a different perspective:

There are many different communities with different definitions of modest dress. For example, the very definition of modest dress in the U.S. -- the school uniform of Beis Yaakovs -- is a "Biz" jeans skirt down to the ankles. Meanwhile, in Meah Shearim, they somehow consider jeans material to be immodest, and there were even some misguided chareidim who were spraying any jeans material with bleach.

You apparently come from a particular community, where standards of modesty are X. But other communities have standards of modesty which are Y. In those communities, a woman wearing a sheitel, or wearing colors (while in shocking to residents of New Square), is indeed being tznius, while also looking fashionable and good -- likely as not to other *women*.

It is difficult to get into the minds of women, and to get into the minds of women from other communities where tznius standards are Y. One should not assume that just because one from community X finds community Y standards provocative, that these women are *intending* to be provocative and non-tznius. As such, mussar might be misplaced.

The Lubavticher Rebbe's response about length of dresses might be instructive in this regard. It is about different norms of tznius:

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/beautiful-within/23.htm

"In response to the question that many have asked me about the proper length of dresses:

My opinion is known that the proper length that applies equally to all Jewish daughters and in all places is that the [length of the garment be such that the] knees be covered even while sitting.

As already stated, that which I mentioned above is the minimum amount that applies equally to all.

However, since there are places where this minimum amount is insufficient - for with regard to matters of tznius and the like, in addition to the fact that there are observances of tznius in different places that are not to be changed, there are also details that depend on the custom of the place (i.e., they depend on the custom to be stringent, but not to be lenient) - it is incumbent on the local Rav who provides Halachic decisions, to clarify and rule with regard to that particular place.

Additionally - and this too is of primary importance - the necessity to be stringent in accordance with the conditions of the location, does not necessarily mean that this is a mere stringency. For it is also possible that the conditions of the place cause it to be a Torah prohibition. And we find this to be so with regard to many matters."

Kol Tuv,
Josh

Comment by Ron Balofsky on October 26, 2007 at 9:31am: With All due respect Rabbi, while your points seem valid from a male perspective of the entire issue of modesty, a man has absolutely no right to pass statements or lines of thought regarding female modesty issues as that is a world that you can never understand.

Ask a female in your family (particularly and unmarried one) to write an honest article regarding modesty without any exterior input. Not only will the article be far more received, it will be viewed as a viewpoint of understanding not of "this is the way it is"