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Meat and Fish
My question is, if this combination is hazardous to ones physical health it should also affect non-Jews as well and thereby this knowledge be public.
Why is this knowledge not known in the secular world or is this combination not dangerous and was only a medieval thought?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Rabbi Joshua Waxman on
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It is a good question. My own take is that this was based on the contemporary science at the time of Chazal. Others may take other positions, either saying that nature has changed, or else saying that it *is* actually true, but modern science has not caught up with it. (For years, kids going to the doctor played behind the X ray machine, checking out their bones, since they did not know of the dangers. And all sorts of things pertaining to diet have been discovered even in modern times.) IIRC, there is also an Acharon who points out by another case (again, IIRC) that there is some minor impact detectable by modern science, and if there is some actual impact, no matter how minor, we don't dismiss Chazal's statement about sakana (even where they were talking about major sakana). In terms of actual practice, ask your local Orthodox rabbi, since there are other possible inputs into final practice, such as the sway of established minhag, and so on.
However, here is the Aruch haShulchan, Yoreh Deah, siman 116.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14242&pgnum=577
A very interesting read, and can get you started on the topic by pointing you to other related sources. He also discusses, close by, the issue of zugos.
Kol Tuv,
Josh
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Permalink Reply by Aryeh Shore on
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Er, that would be talmudic, not medieval, as it is in the talmud.
No one has brought non-Jewish sources from Babylonian or Greek/Roman sources about the various seconot mentioned in the Talmud so we don't know if it was some sort of superstition like Zugot or a perceived danger. For some reason, when Rav Sharir Gaon poskined that we no longer practice any of the medical cures or Segulot found in the Babylonian Talmud it did not extend to the seconot. Now some seem logical, like not eating a cow which had eatien a toxic substance like Harduf (Oleander) and the salt from the Dead Sea was probable not good for your eyes, but we do not have contemporary sources. When the Rambam discusses not drinking water left out overnight because a snake may have deposit its venom in it, he states he has seen it happen but he does not bring any of the Greek/Roman sources that he cites for his other medical treatments. He never brings any cures in the Babylonian Talmud presumably because Babylonian medicine was so far removed in concept from Greek medicine.
As for the hygienic practices of the Jews like washing your hands before you eat and its improving the genetic suvival of the clan, some have suggested that fewer Jews died during the Black plague and this was one of the causes of accusing them of causing it somehow but this has not been documented. We do have one instance from 19th century Italy where the Jews who ate Kosher meat weren't dying during an epidemic and the non-Jews were. When the Shochet suggested to the non-Jews that they should inspect their meat the way the Jews do, the epidemic ended by them also. The only relevant study I can think of is the one showing that Religious Kibbutz males lived longer and had fewer heart attacks than the non-religious Kibbutzniks. Similarly, we have the paradox of Bnei Brak where they also live longer in spite of poor health practices. I suggest that this can be explained by the observation they do not have cars and tend to walk everywhere.
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Presumably the question is if we know something is harmful to the health, should Jews warn their non-Jewish neighbors.
1. The Rambam went to the Sultan and requested to put Theriac, a cure for snakebites in every
villiage and town in Egypt, which he did. Now Theriac is totally useless as far as we know today but the Greeks and Romans thought it was an incredible cure for just about anything. He didn't mention the fish and meat in any of his medical books since I don't think he believed it was correct (correct if I am wrong).
2. As described in my brilliant penetrating article in Torah and Madah, in 1858 a Shochet in Leghorn Italy found that a Cholera epidenmic was being caused by an abcess in the sheep. When he forbid the use of such sheep, the plague stopped amoung the Jews. He then informed the non-Jewish authorities who also forbid the sheep, and the plague stopped.
So it would appear if a Jew really finds something that cures and helps people, he should share it with the non-Jews. From the cited sources,this would support such aid to Chistians and Moslems.
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Permalink Reply by Ron Balofsky on -
Does this mean that the prohibition does not need to be adhered to?
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As you can see from the Aruch HaShulchan, there is a running debate throughout Jewish history what to do with sakanas in the gemara which are not sekanahs. The Tosephot and the Rambam say that mayim archronim and the fish/meat are no longer a danger and should be assigned to the halachic trash bin. A good number of rishonim and achronim disagree. Inrterestingly, the tosephot say there are no snakes which deposit their venom in water left out overnight while the Rambam writes that he has seen it with his own eyes. (There is no such thing. Although nature changes, this is relevant to the start of puberty which has changed dramatically even in my lifetime not whether snake venom is stable in water.
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Permalink Reply by Ron Balofsky on
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Fair enough, would you not agree that in cases of need one can be lenient?
Aryeh Shore said:
As you can see from the Aruch HaShulchan, there is a running debate throughout Jewish history what to do with sakanas in the gemara which are not sekanahs. The Tosephot and the Rambam say that mayim archronim and the fish/meat are no longer a danger and should be assigned to the halachic trash bin. A good number of rishonim and achronim disagree. Inrterestingly, the tosephot say there are no snakes which deposit their venom in water left out overnight while the Rambam writes that he has seen it with his own eyes. (There is no such thing. Although nature changes, this is relevant to the start of puberty which has changed dramatically even in my lifetime not whether snake venom is stable in water.
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Permalink Reply by Evan Gary Moss on -
"(There is no such thing. Although nature changes, this is relevant to the start of puberty which has changed dramatically even in my lifetime not whether snake venom is stable in water."
Dr., would you please explain?
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One of the common answers in the Halachic literature to explain why medicine and sakanot in the gemara and bible do not match reality as we know it is that nature changes, e.g. eating fish and meat in the time of the gemara caused leprosy but this is not true today. This line of reasoning is strengthen by how newspapers report science, e.g. HRT (hormone replacement therapy) was used to prevent heart attacks for the last three decades, while two years ago it was found it caused heart attacks). While somethings do change, basic physiology, anatomy, DNA and the laws of physics and chemistry do not change. An example of nature changing in that in the gemara the age of puberty was 11 to 12 years. In the late 19th century, the age of puberty was 18 to 20. Since then it has dropped steadily to 11 to 12 years in our time. This is a matter of nutrition.
As for snakes, they do not put their venom into water when they drink. Even if you put the venom in water, it is not stable and is rapidly destroyed. (I read this last statement many years ago. I never tried it myself nor have seen the actual experimental data.)
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Permalink Reply by Evan Gary Moss on
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How do you explain the Rambam then?
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Permalink Reply by Ron Balofsky on
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Gentleman, the bottom line is as follows:
Halachik rulings of the past that were NOT concerned with spiritual detriment, but rather physical, were created to protect the people at the time. Now that is has been dis-proven (or nature has changed), one can easily reason that if those sources were alive today, the ban would surely be removed.
A change of this nature would not discredit the legitimacy or authority of that halachik source.
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How do you explain the Rambam? There are somethings you have to accept that since the people who wrote them are dead some thousand years that you will never find out what they meant. Maybe somebody will find a contempary Arabic medical text somewhere someday and write a master's thesis on it.
Although the Tosephot felt there is no problem in ignoring the seckanot of the gemara as no longer relevant, there are a lot of people out there who get apoplectic at the thought. I believe the little segment in the Aruch HaShulchan pasted in Josh's post is a good summary. Incidently the Aruch HaShulchan is readily availble on Wikitext. No. There is no English translation.
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Permalink Reply by Ron Balofsky on
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"there are a lot of people out there who get apoplectic at the thought"
I believe this mind set is/was generated from the shtettle way of life. People were mostly un-knowledgeable and leached on to the gadolim of the day for guidance. In today's society, there is a wealth of knowledge and introspection that "commoners" have which makes people create posts such as this one, i.e. why do we do out dated things.
Basically, why is the mesora of the Torah not good enough and we are all living a life of chumras...
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